Multiple annotation scales

[sketch11]

Is there a way to have 2 annotation scales show at the same time?

In the example below, appearance on the right side should be twice as much as the left.

But it's always the same when changes are made.

 

Test.dwg

[CyberAngel]

Annotation scales are intended for use in viewports. You can create viewports for both of those views, assign different scales to them, and have the dimensions show up at the same scale.

 

If you want the sizes to differ, turn off the annotation property.

[Dana W]

Annotation scale in model space does not affect the size of your objects. It does change the size of your dimension text and arrowheads, IF you have different scales assigned to each one, not all assigned to each one as you have yours. The annotation property is only an assignment attached to your dimensions. ALWAYS DRAW FULL SIZE.  Like Cyberangel says, you have to use viewports in paperspace to get annotative dimensions to work.  Do not try to set up scaled objects in modelspace.  That's why paperspace layouts came to be. I've never done it and never will.  A lot of shops will frown upon scaling objects in modelspace to the point of handing out disciplinary actions.

 

Another thing, if you set ANNOALLVISIBLE to zero, the dimensions that do not have the same property as the modelspace current annotation scale will disappear in modelspace and only be visible in the viewport with that scale.  Toggle the current modelspace annotation scale back and forth between 1:2 and 1:1 in the version of your drawing that I attached here to see what I mean.  The dimension will change size because it has more than one scale.  The way you had it before with two dimensions and two scales each caused no difference to show up.  Needing only one object and one dimension was the whole point of inventing annotative dimensions in the first place.

 

More than one viewport per layout is just fine also.  They don't have to both have the same scale applied, and the drawing can be presented in more than one viewport, each with a different scale.

 

I think you can go up to 24 viewports on one layout.

 

Did you know you can apply annotative scaling to text, mtext, dimensions, leaders and blocks?

Here's your drawing back.  One object, one dimension, two viewports, two different scales on layout1.  This is the only way it works.  You can add more scales to these dimensions too, if needed.

 

Test.dwg

Edited June 8, 2021 by Dana W

[Dana W]

Please tell me you did not expect one of those two dimensions to automatically change to 64 units.

[dtkell]

1 hour ago, Dana W said:

...

I think you can go up to 24 viewports on one layout.

...

 

I thought maximum active viewports (MAXACTVP) was 64

[Dana W]

Check the value for the variable MAXACTVP.  It is defaulted to 64, but can be changed to a lower value.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Dana W

[sketch11]

Thanks for the responses.

I understand a bit more but am still having issues with what I'm trying to do.

Basically it's to show different "text" and "arrowheads" at different scales, at the same time. It can be either in model space or paper space but the drawing objects and annotative parts have to be in the same space. This is because I'm copying and pasting all parts into another application such as Word.

 

 

 

Quote

Please tell me you did not expect one of those two dimensions to automatically change to 64 units.

No this is not the case. Trying to achieve as below. The top one is actually exploded and scaled by 2 manually. Basically I want this to happen by changing the "Annotative scale".

It looks like it can't be done as per Cyber Angel reply. Does this mean I have to change the text and arrowhead manually?

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by sketch11

[ammobake]

Yeah annotative scaling has its own advantages and disadvantages.

This is one big reason I almost never use annotative scaling.  It does have its uses but more often than not, at least for me, it's just too obnoxious.

 

The idea is that if you have, say,  3 different viewports on a sheet tab, all 3 with different scales, an object like a dimension can show up scaled properly in all 3 viewports (just as an example).  The annotative scale of the object becoming tweaked to correspond with the viewport's scale.

 

There are potential issues with this, however, that simple rescaling of the object doesn't always resolve.

And it also can pose some extremely obnoxious strangeness.

 

Especially when you get into a DWG where people have implemented tons of user overrides and you have like 600 layers.

 

-ChriS

[sketch11]

OK thanks for the input.

I will give the Annotative scaling a miss this time and just adjust manually from the Properties toolbar.

[ammobake]

To clarify, the issue of user overrides, specifically, is problematic for annotative scales for a few reasons.

 

For one, it isn't always easy to tell which objects have had user overrides applied and which haven't.  Especially when you have hundreds of annotative objects in a drawing all on a multitude of various layers.

 

Another problem is if someone manually applies an annotative scale (aka user override) to a specific object it will no longer rescale to correspond with the viewport scale on the other viewports because the user override takes precedence.

 

Which kind of defeats the purpose of having annotative scales in the first place - annotative scales more or less being created with the intent of having an automated scaling system (letting you create 1 object instead of multiple objects on different layers specifically for other viewports).

 

Then, if someone applies those user overrides and copies that object hundreds of times, it makes editing/changing anything much more difficult - Which, altogether, defeats the purpose of having styles.

 

The idea is that if you want to change something about an object's style, you can tweak the style, click apply and it will change the properties of all of those objects of that style at one time and it will apply throughout your drawing to all objects of that style (dimensions, multileaders, etc..)

 

Making your life easier.

 

But user overrides create a roadblock that prevents you from easily being able to change those objects all at one time.

Which basically just creates more work for you that doesn't need to be there.

 

Dimensions are one example but there are many.

Annotative scaling is just another thing that someone can override thinking they are doing the right thing.

 

And may also be why your objects are not scaling properly in your example.

 

-ChriS

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by ammobake

[sketch11]

OK thanks I will take this into account.

I think you're saying to use Styles?

If I use Styles, will this work with some of my other blocks, such as a Section symbol. The Section has Attributes which I change (section number, reference drawing number). I can't actually see a Style option in the Properties toolbar for the dynamic block.

[Dana W]

One shop I worked with had one non-annotative dimstyle for each individual scale in the default scale list, and made up a new one if they needed a custom scale.  That adds up to a minimum of 16 different text styles multiplied by mtext and leaders which is 48 styles.  Then you get into user blocks for custom leaders.... >>gasp<<   One immediate problem with that is, the text height for each style was never exactly accurate.  Then you have template maintenance.

 

In reality, most shops use about four or five non-annotative dimstyles, still too many.

 

Custom scales are as big a mistake as dimension distance overrides.

 

I have been told at more than one interview that discipline would be handed out if caught overriding dimension distances.  I add content overrides all the time, but never change the actual distance, example  48'-0" CLEAR.

 

Annotative scaling was developed to alleviate the PROBLEM of multiple annotation styles.  I have used annotative style since 2007 when I first discovered its existence and never really had any difficulty with it after the learning curve was defeated. For years now, I have used one text style, one dimstyle and one basic leader style.  There are other leader styles using attached blocks, but the blocks use the same text style.

 

If annotative styles are not your bag, you can always put your dimensions and leaders in paperspace where one style can work for you. 

 

I have worked directly with several interior designers.  That should be self explanatory why paperspace dimensions are not feasible for me.  If not, this will be.  Recently I worked with Flitty Flighty Schisms Are Us Designers of Orlando Inc.  They regularly sent me extensive revisions after I submitted a project for approval.  At that point I should be getting back APPROVED AS NOTED at the worst.  Instead I get back floorplan redesigns, and no real redlines of the submission, nor addressing of outstanding RFI's, nor an acceptance that drawing time will increase.  "Well, yes.  Shortening the break room by nine feet will effect the custom cabinets along that wall that you have just forced into an "L" shape."  They will do this three or four times during a project, often after final shop drawing approval, thus generating thousands of dollars of change orders.  This firm has gotten into an actual argument with the architect about where a sawbucks coffee machine needs to be, resulting in redraws and re-redraws of the same changes. How they find clients willing to suffer through that sort of thing is beyond me. They were the reason I finally completely retired.

 

If there are any interior designers in the audience, please don't be offended, but you know who you are.

 

Multiple changes can render paperspace dimension associativity useless, especially if something is moved all the way out of the viewport.  I've had them end up looking like a shotgun blast through a birds nest.  So, I have not used paperspace dimensions routinely for many years.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Dana W

[Dana W]

21 hours ago, sketch11 said:

Thanks for the responses.

I understand a bit more but am still having issues with what I'm trying to do.

Basically it's to show different "text" and "arrowheads" at different scales, at the same time. It can be either in model space or paper space but the drawing objects and annotative parts have to be in the same space. This is because I'm copying and pasting all parts into another application such as Word.

 

 

 

No this is not the case. Trying to achieve as below. The top one is actually exploded and scaled by 2 manually. Basically I want this to happen by changing the "Annotative scale".

It looks like it can't be done as per Cyber Angel reply. Does this mean I have to change the text and arrowhead manually?

 

Nope, can't do it that way.  Annotative dimensions were invented to avoid that sort of thing.   You are going to have to turn your dimensions into drawing objects and scale them manually for that, or use multiple dimension styles for the different scales. annotative scaling doesn't do that.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Dana W

[sketch11]

OK thanks for the feedback.

It looks like I have to use multiple styles or scale manually. Please let me know if I can get the "Styles" method to work with dynamic blocks which have Attribute text in them.

[Kristy]

On 6/8/2021 at 6:34 PM, ammobake said:

Yeah annotative scaling has its own advantages and disadvantages.

This is one big reason I almost never use annotative scaling.  It does have its uses but more often than not, at least for me, it's just too obnoxious.

 

The idea is that if you have, say,  3 different viewports on a sheet tab, all 3 with different scales, an object like a dimension can show up scaled properly in all 3 viewports (just as an example).  The annotative scale of the object becoming tweaked to correspond with the viewport's scale.

 

There are potential issues with this, however, that simple rescaling of the object doesn't always resolve.

And it also can pose some extremely obnoxious strangeness.

 

Especially when you get into a DWG where people have implemented tons of user overrides and you have like 600 layers.

 

-ChriS

Hi there, 

You mention "3 different viewports on a sheet tab, all 3 with different scales, an object like a dimension can show up scaled properly in all 3 viewports".  How exactly do you do this?  I have my annotative dimension set up in model space (I can see in model space the two different text heights when selected) but the dimension only shows up in paper space in the one viewport that has the same 4:1 scale selected in the vport as is shown in model space.  How can I keep my 4:1 vport with the dimension visible while having a vport beside it at 2:1 with the same dimension shown?

[CyberAngel]

16 hours ago, Kristy said:

Hi there, 

You mention "3 different viewports on a sheet tab, all 3 with different scales, an object like a dimension can show up scaled properly in all 3 viewports".  How exactly do you do this?  I have my annotative dimension set up in model space (I can see in model space the two different text heights when selected) but the dimension only shows up in paper space in the one viewport that has the same 4:1 scale selected in the vport as is shown in model space.  How can I keep my 4:1 vport with the dimension visible while having a vport beside it at 2:1 with the same dimension shown?

Each viewport has its own scales. You can set the annotative scale and the actual scale (listed as Standard and Custom in the viewport's properties). Don't forget to unlock the viewport before trying to change the scale. Don't forget to lock it again when you're done.