Dimension Scaling in Paper Space

[Bill Tillman]

okay, so I'm working for an extremely stubborn client who draws floor plans in model space but then dimensions and annotates in paper space on the layout tabs. And of course if someone needs to re-orient something in a viewport then all the text and dimensions have to be moved very carefully not to mention if you need to change the scale of a viewport. So here's a problem I've found which doesn't seem to ring any bells on how to resolve it. I add a dimension in paper space on a layout tab and change the Linear Scale setting in Properties so it will show the correct dimension. Sometimes we do a text override but most of the time I use the Linear Scale Property to get the dimension to read right. No I need to move that dimension, maybe just a little to the left and poof, it looses it's scale setting and now instead of 30'-6" it shows 5,345.23 or some other unrelated number. I can reset the Linear Scale but I've noticed that even a simple REGENALL may tip it back and it now has a very inaccurate number in it.

 

I should mention here that this laptop was setup by others. The AutoCAD environment setting are constantly surprising me as to what the previous detailer had setup. Some of it just doesn't make sense at all, but she was from a foreign land and did not even speak English. No problem. In most instances I would just reset AutoCAD to all it's defaults and then customize what I need to my taste. But being this is a corporate laptop, any changes are not allowed. 

[ReMark]

I don't see where that is so unusual.  We did all of our fabrication drawings that way.  Linework in model space; dims and text in paper space.  Rarely did we ever experience any problems.

[tombu]

On 4/10/2020 at 8:35 AM, Bill Tillman said:

I add a dimension in paper space on a layout tab and change the Linear Scale setting in Properties so it will show the correct dimension. Sometimes we do a text override but most of the time I use the Linear Scale Property to get the dimension to read right. No I need to move that dimension, maybe just a little to the left and poof, it looses it's scale setting and now instead of 30'-6" it shows 5,345.23 or some other unrelated number. I can reset the Linear Scale but I've noticed that even a simple REGENALL may tip it back and it now has a very inaccurate number in it.

Just stop using text or linear scale property overrides altogether! It would take less than a minute to add the dimension style you need to do it properly or just use an annotative dimension style that would work in any space or scale. Problem solved! Sounds like something you do on a regular basis add all the dimension styles you use to a template or drawing you could simply drag and drop them in from to make it less than a 10 second task if you like.

[Bill Tillman]

Tombu, yes I am sure you're right. I eventually have to get annotative working. So many other distractions these days.

[BIGAL]

Don't forget CHSPACE may help with problem of change orientation.

[resullins]

Wow... one of the few places I will disagree with ReMark! 

 

I absolutely detest annotating in paper space with very few exceptions. So I'm with you Bill. Now, per your question, you may be having some weirdness with OSNAP. If you draw a dimension in PS but you OSNAP to stuff in model space, you will actually get an accurate dimension, so there's no need to set your dim scale! So when you're moving a dimension that's dim scaled, you may be SNAPping to something, which means you're now getting a dimension that was accurate AND then multiplied by your dim scale. 

 

 

[RobDraw]

19 hours ago, resullins said:

Wow... one of the few places I will disagree with ReMark! 

 

Sometimes it's not about agreeing or not but rather the requirements of the task. Annotating in paper space is not something to detest but rather have as a viable workflow for the appropriate situations.

[SLW210]

Technically speaking, the Model goes in Model Space and everything else in Paper Space, that was the original intent of the Layout Tabs and why it is now frowned upon to put the titleblock in Model Space. For many people it is the best way to do it, for some rare exceptions keeping things in Model Space might be better, but it not the way it was originally supposed to go. That's why they (much latter) introduced annotation scaling and you can tell it was an after thought. I get lots of drawings from other companies and unless it is a way older drawing, nearly all of them are dimensioned in Paper Space.

 

As to the OP, you should be using Associative dimensions, AutoCAD should automatically set the correct scaled dimensions as long as you are using valid object Snaps (Like Intersection, End Point, Mid Point) and both points are in Model Space.

As for restoring AutoCAD to defaults not being allowed, if no changes are allowed, how did the previous user change them?

 

Do you have a sample .dwg that shows the problems you are encountering?

[resullins]

3 hours ago, RobDraw said:

 

Sometimes it's not about agreeing or not but rather the requirements of the task. Annotating in paper space is not something to detest but rather have as a viable workflow for the appropriate situations.

 

Oh, completely agree... and for people that are in manufacturing, I can absolutely see where annotating in paper space makes more sense. He just usually has all the answers I want! HA! And I do a lot of things where, like similar objects are shown on multiple pages in different ways... and I worked once for a company that annotated in paper space. So making one change meant altering things in a ton of layout tabs. It was terrible. Couple that with some drafters that liked to override dimensions, some that would scale their dims, and some that would SNAP properly, and a 5 minute change would take half your day. 

 

Can you migrate settings? Since that doesn't usually require admin privileges like running the installer to restore AC would, you may be able to get away with that. Have someone with a clean install send you their exported settings file. 

[BIGAL]

Its a bit 50/50 modelspace v's pspace for me its modelspace. My automatic dimension a house will not work in paperspace as it works by dragging over the wall objects.

[tombu]

One of my many AutoCAD rules is always drawing in model space at 1:1 and never using dimension overrides. Like most of my rules I've broken it when it suits my purpose.

Typical sections and details that I've used in multiple projects have been scaled and placed in paper space. I'll import or create whatever dimension style needed to label them correctly. When they're done I'll use a Lee Mac lisp to convert the dimensions to display the same but with overrides so I can purge the added dimension styles so those typicals and details can easily be added to other projects cleanly.

 

Generally following a good set of rules protects us from having unforeseen issues later in AutoCAD but exercising good judgement once in a while to accomplish a certain task is OK as long as you're mindful of it. Except dimensions for those typicals and details (still drawn to scale) I've never broken that particular rule.

 

[steven-g]

I'm with ReMark & SLW210, draw in modelspace, annotate in a layout. EVERYTHING in modelspace is full size not scaled, so even if a detail is too messy to be drawn as part of the model then I would draw it in a different area in modelspace, but still drawn full size, I only ever scale using layout viewports. But the fact is you can do whatever you want in AutoCAD so long as it works, the problem is when you work in groups either within a company or with joint ventures. Then it saves so much wasted time when everyone uses the same standards and methods. If layout dimensions are associated to the objects in modelspace then editing in modelspace should correctly update the dimensions in a layout, but yes I can image this could cause some 'visual' conflicts in a layout especially with text items. I suppose that I am lucky working in the area I do as annotations usually only need be applied when a design is final so editing a model is rare after that point, so I have never had these problems.

[rkent]

This is a known bug, I have run into it myself a few times.  Go to this post and down to the solution.  It worked for me.

 

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/autocad-forum/annotation-scaling-in-paperspace/m-p/7109510#M881333<br>go to solution - post 19

[ammobake]

model space is how I do things usually.

 

In some rare cases, I will turn off the model space dims and add more detailed dimensions in paperspace (just as an example).

I prefer this method to showing all your dims in model space and then using layer manager to disable whatever dim layer you aren't using.

 

My own method is to set up unique dimstyles for paperspace dims and model space dims to specify scaling features/etc.. to keep your overrides at an absolute minimum.

(the less the better).  In some cases user overrides can cause alot of headaches, so I usually avoid them as much as possible.

 

If you can get one paperspace dim the way you want matchprop will fix the rest...

 

But I have seen the issue of associative paperspace dims "disassociating" when you move something in model space.

My own method is to use matchprop and make everything in paperspace match the style settings - with zero overrides needed.

 

Most firms I've worked for in the past did not allow user overrides.

It was very frowned upon.  And if someone found a user override in your drawing you could actually get chewed out lol.

 

-ChrIS

[Sam_Spade]

 

I will typically draw and dimension in model space.  However, dimensioning is done through the viewports with the 'DIMSCALE' set to '0'.  This will allow the current DIMSTYLE to be scaled to the viewport scale.   No need to create multiple scales of the same DIMSTYLE. 

[tombu]

17 hours ago, Sam_Spade said:

 

I will typically draw and dimension in model space.  However, dimensioning is done through the viewports with the 'DIMSCALE' set to '0'.  This will allow the current DIMSTYLE to be scaled to the viewport scale.   No need to create multiple scales of the same DIMSTYLE. 

Note: When the current dimension style is Annotative, the value of DIMSCALE is automatically set to zero, and does not affect the dimension scale.

It works similar to using Annotative Dimension Styles. I remember dimensioning being a real pain many years ago, much easier now.