Single Line Display of Families (Specifically valves)

[wildirish317]

I'm at a point where I can model a piping system in "Fine" detail level that our installers can use. Now, I'm trying to use Revit to produce single line (Course or Medium detail) for our estimators, to make it easier for them to do take-offs.

 

Below is a screen shot of out-of-the-box Revit ball valves in Course detail. Can someone tell me why the smaller valves are "out of whack"? It has to be how the model lines are locked in the family, but I'm having trouble determining what's locked to what.

 

I can probably fix these by copying the 2" Family Type to the 1-1/2" Family Type and then change the size parameters back to 1-1/2", but that won't teach me why these model lines behave the way they do.

 

Any feedback will be appreciated.

 

[tzframpton]

You will have to dig into the Valve Family and reverse engineer how the model lines are set up. Also, annotative scaling for schematic objects (in Mechanical Settings) can have adverse effects on this.

 

I have edited the valves I use most often, which aren't many. But it's almost required in Revit. Kind of a pain if you ask me, but to Revit's defense... EVERY company shows valves and schematic objects differently. Trying to use 3D models to represent a schematic 2D layout is, and will never be complete.

[wildirish317]

Trying to use 3D models to represent a schematic 2D layout is, and will never be complete.

 

I agree.

 

I'm seeing a lot more Revit drawings from the local engineers. They are showing the plans in "Fine" detail, and adding a lot of sections and isometrics to clarify the plan drawings.

[tzframpton]

I'm seeing a lot more Revit drawings from the local engineers. They are showing the plans in "Fine" detail, and adding a lot of sections and isometrics to clarify the plan drawings.

You're totally right. Here's an example of a project I'm working on now actually.... just makes more sense to use it if you can:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4989089/Images/cadtutor/2014-10-03_Piping_Example_PDF/B1_MEP_Example.pdf

[wildirish317]

That looks pretty good. Here's a sample of what our estimating department is struggling with now. These smaller pipes at 1/8" scale are hard to follow:

 

Fortunately, the engineers included risers to aid in telling what goes where:

 

Still, it's difficult to follow on a scanned pdf file.

[tzframpton]

I'm a huge fan of single-line schematic piping. It's clean, easy to follow and well organized. The problem with Revit is this: if you model realistically then your schematic single-line display will suffer immensely. So you have two options: use Piping in Revit as "3D pipes" in a "2D world". No offsets in elevation, no coordination efforts at all, and no realistic piping types, valve placements or fittings. Just run the pipe as if you were running 2D linework and that's it. As soon as you want to use Piping in Revit as a realistic routing and coordination effort, then forfeit the schematic view, start using enlarged views everywhere necessary, and use tons of Sections and Elevations with Section Box 3D Rendered Views (as shown in my example PDF linked above).

 

Either way you choose is up to you, but one thing is for certain, again I reiterate: realistic 3D pipe routing and coordination will never get you clean 2D single-line schematic Views no matter how hard you try. Choose one or the other, not both.

 

Hope this helps. And thanks for the compliment, maybe they can inspire you to some degree.

[wildirish317]

Again, I agree. I'm not a fan of doing things twice, so I build the model first, then figure out the best way to represent it to the intended audience. The examples I displayed were from an engineering firm, not my company. I wouldn't use anything smaller than 1/4" scale for Revit, unless I'm using it as a "key plan" type of map to show where to go for the larger scale plans.

 

Getting back to my original post, I'll probably start putting BOMs on the sheets for the estimators to use. I've done this on occasion. They always take it off anyway, just to see how my BOM matches QuickPen.

[tzframpton]

I love BOM in Revit. It's so easy and accurate. Post up if you need additional assistance on it.

[bpark8824]

tzframpton - how are you able to make all your mech equipment gray like you have, I like the way that looks.

[tzframpton]

See settings attached.

 

[bpark8824]

Awesome, thank you.

 

I had the color set to gray but forgot to set it to a solid pattern.

 

We've been using Revit in house for a year now and I've also struggled a lot with single line drawings. We used to always have a standard of 2-1/2" and over (flanged) would be shown in 2-line and anything smaller would be single line however this has become more difficult with Revit.

[tzframpton]

Awesome, thank you.

 

I had the color set to gray but forgot to set it to a solid pattern.

 

We've been using Revit in house for a year now and I've also struggled a lot with single line drawings. We used to always have a standard of 2-1/2" and over (flanged) would be shown in 2-line and anything smaller would be single line however this has become more difficult with Revit.

My advice would be this: start using more creative processes in showing the information. You will also have to rethink when/where/how you will show single versus double lined pipe. For me, if I'm showing mechanical piping for chilled water systems at double line, I'm going quarter inch scale at a minimum. So that means I'll have to utilize Revit's Callout Vew a lot, which if you get a good process down, this becomes very efficient.

 

I break it up like this: Overalls, Partials and Enlarged for my "plans". Overalls are single line. Partials can be either/or, just depending on the scenario, and Partial Plans typically stick to "area plans" such as Area A, B, C, etc. Enlarged are always double lined and never coarser than 1/4" = 1'-0" scale. Enlarged are always going to be my mechanical rooms, or certain areas where there's just too much going on to fit on a partial.

 

Good Project Template setups and View Templates are absolutely critical for Revit efficiency. On average, I'm updating my office's Revit MEP template about 3 times a week, and have been for years. It's never ending, but man can we pump out some work in Revit in no time.

 

-TZ

[tzframpton]

One other thing: I dropped the attempt at showing single line below a certain size a long time ago. It's too hard to try and do both in Revit in the same View. I mean, with Filters you can try it, but it really just fails overall. So all or nothing per view, but again, utilize Revit's Callout View and especially Dependent Views to get a good system down of referenced views. This is what creates a lot more information for your field guys and ultimately they'll appreciate it much more. There's two things field guys love: Overall views with as much info as possible, and enlarged views with as much info as possible. Give them both and they're super happy, especially if you can throw in great looking section views and a 3D view like in the PDF above (not sure if you saw it, but it's a multi-page PDF).

 

-TZ

[bpark8824]

I've dropped the single line and two line on the same view idea like you mentioned and basically will do overall plans in single line where we usually end up with 1/8" plans and then like you said, do enlarged views of mechanical rooms at 1/4 or 1/2" scale and use two line or fine detail.

 

The biggest PITA is creating and getting all your single line symbols to work in Revit.

 

Creating sections is probably my favorite thing about Revit so far. I setup my plans similar to how you have shown on the Mechanical Room PDF you attached previously and it seems to work really well and makes life on the contractor easier as well. Sections in CAD were a disaster.

[tzframpton]

The biggest PITA is creating and getting all your single line symbols to work in Revit.

It is, unless you do like I do and stock-pile some 2D symbols that are nothing more than Blocks in AutoCAD - just for when you need them on your sheet.

 

3D piping and 2D schematic/P&ID just doesn't work (yet) with Revit the way it could, especially for contracting. I do wonder what they'll come up with, but the bi-directional between 3D model and 2D schematic diagram would be interesting.

 

-TZ

[bpark8824]

I think Revit should have a schematic drawing ability similar to AMEP. I know it goes against the BIM thing but in reality there is still a huge portion of drawings done in single line schematic fashion. And IMO there's nothing wrong with that. Some projects don't require the 3D BIM coordination so why over complicate it?

[tzframpton]

I think Revit should have a schematic drawing ability similar to AMEP. I know it goes against the BIM thing but in reality there is still a huge portion of drawings done in single line schematic fashion. And IMO there's nothing wrong with that. Some projects don't require the 3D BIM coordination so why over complicate it?

For piping, we actually still use AMEP if it's a BIM project and 3D modeling only. Revit's just too difficult for mechanical piping and definitely for sloped DWV piping, especially when it gets too big - the Systems in Revit cripple the project performance. I've actually submitted official documentation to the Autodesk Revit Dev team on needing to fix this.

 

Don't be scared to continue using programs such as AMEP. Revit is more for engineering and "design intent" anyways. If a GC let's you use AMEP, by all means do it. If you do design/build projects, then definitely learn Revit as it puts you in a great market with little competition. AMEP for duct has benefits like Flanges/Joints, something Revit doesn't offer (and if anybody says it does because of MEP Fabrication Sets in Revit, I tell them to get bent as it's not a viable solution).

 

Since you're still kind of new to Revit, let me give you my perspective to help you with years of mental anguish of trying to justify using Revit. First off, Revit is great, and Revit is not great. Like anything in existence, there's no ultimate solutions, only trade-offs. You will work extra hard at some thing with Revit, and you will work way less at other things in Revit. For shear modeling, AMEP has Revit beat any day of the week. For documentation and "information", Revit will drop-kick AMEP any day of the week. But don't let anybody tell you Revit's the cat's meow because it isn't - not in an all encompassing manner that is expected to replace everything else, anyways.

 

Revit for architects - best thing that's happened to the industry in... like, ever. Revit for MEP guys... some good, some bad, and BIM contractors get stuck on the short ends of both sticks. Always give Revit a shot, no matter what. Give it time, no matter what. If it feels monotonous, ask the pro's on forums and be sure to ask "why?" so you are well-informed. But, never say AMEP is done for the MEP BIM designer, because in so many ways it's just.... far, far better.

 

I don't know. Sometimes Revit does so good for my office it amazes me we even have AutoCAD installed. Sometimes Revit does so little for us I just want to uninstall it and use AMEP forever. Lol, like I've said before - Revit is like American women, it'll tell you that something's wrong, but it won't tell you what's wrong and it's up to you to figure it out and you'll pull your hair out trying.

 

Keep it up, stay in touch if you need Revit assistance... or if you need a Revit therapist to ensure you're not going insane.

 

-TZ

[bpark8824]

I work for a consulting architecture & engineering (we will do coordination dwgs for contractors as time allows) firm so our decision to switch was driven by the architects and from everything I hear from the Revit is the greatest thing since sliced bread for them. And for the most part I do like Revit a lot. Setting up views and sheets works wonderfully. The amount of view control you have on a view basis or project basis is significant and works really well IMO. The 3D piping and ductwork routing works very well.

 

The biggest short coming for me is the scheduling which I've found virtually impossible to use w/o spending an insane amount of time to get them working properly or I'm just doing something way wrong??

 

The next thing I would complain about is it's in-ability to do simple things. I get it, that's not what Revit is for but at the end of the day sometimes I just need a simple drawing for bidding purposes.

 

I really wish I could just have library of my schematic symbols (ball valves, bf valves, balance valves, 2-way, 3-way, etc. etc.) and just drop them onto my piping where needed. Creating families with these schematic symbols seems super time consuming and time that we just don't have right now. We are flat out busy.

 

Those are really my only gripes with Revit right now; oh and getting used to ALL my ductwork and piping being black is still not amazing. I know I can change the color but at the end of the day I need it to print black so therefore it needs to be black in the view. I don't understand why Revit can't have a plot setting to turn colors black like CAD did. I'm not a programmer but it would seem that isn't the most difficult thing?

[tzframpton]

The biggest short coming for me is the scheduling which I've found virtually impossible to use w/o spending an insane amount of time to get them working properly or I'm just doing something way wrong??

Must be doing something wrong. Scheduling is simple and easy in Revit. But, the prerequisite is that you understand Shared Parameters. Also, you'll need to invest in a 3rd party app for managing Shared Parameters. Do not even blink at the cost - just buy it, because in three minutes of using it you'll make all your money back.

 

The next thing I would complain about is it's in-ability to do simple things. I get it, that's not what Revit is for but at the end of the day sometimes I just need a simple drawing for bidding purposes.

Revit is simple if you keep it simple. Use Placeholder items in lieu of standard Families. Use 2D Linework all you want - don't think you can't use 2D linework, especially for quick sketches. You'll just have to find what works best for you but point is to simplify it however you want, just try different ways, it'll all click on what's worth it and what's not.

 

I really wish I could just have library of my schematic symbols (ball valves, bf valves, balance valves, 2-way, 3-way, etc. etc.) and just drop them onto my piping where needed. Creating families with these schematic symbols seems super time consuming and time that we just don't have right now. We are flat out busy.

AutoCAD content had to be developed at some point. New platform, new efforts - just gotta put it in when you can. What I've done in the past is convince management that we need R&D time each month to build content. Content = efficiency = time saved = money earned. It's necessary, as was AutoCAD, sometimes we forget that our libraries in AutoCAD came about somehow. Hire a Revit guru that has 10+ years experience and he/she will bring 10+ years of content with him. Just like the AutoCAD days.

 

 

...oh and getting used to ALL my ductwork and piping being black is still not amazing. I know I can change the color but at the end of the day I need it to print black so therefore it needs to be black in the view. I don't understand why Revit can't have a plot setting to turn colors black like CAD did. I'm not a programmer but it would seem that isn't the most difficult thing?

Oh this is easy. Create a Filter and add these three categories to it: Duct, Duct Fittings and Duct Accessories. When ready to print, open the View Template and set the Lines to Black, then reverse when done. Easy peasy.

 

Hope this helps.

 

PS: As an owner of a BIM/Revit consultant business, if your company needs some general consulting, I'd be more than happy to extend my services. I can travel if your company needs in-house metrics analyzed and things mapped out, or we can keep it simple and do by-the-hour GoToMeetings so I can analyze and assist you guys in Project Template setups, Shared Parameters, View Templates, Family Development and all the things that makes Revit buzz the right way. I have a few employees that keep my operations going when I have to travel. Just a thought is all.

 

-TZ

[bpark8824]

Thank you for all the tips/advice/words of encouragement. It's nice to know other people share similar feelings so you know it isn't just me!

 

I will certainly keep you mind for some Revit consulting. I'd love to have some time to really dive into certain aspects but out work load has been such that it is a "just get it done" mentality right now.