Revit MEP for Life Support Systems?

[tzframpton]

ReMark, you are way off base my friend.

 

Revit is not a replacement for AutoCAD. Parametric CAD software is. So, take the 100,00 Revit users, and add in all other parametric Autodesk CAD products (eg: Inventor, etc) in the non-media industry (A/E/C, production, manufacturing, etc). Now, add in competing CAD software companies that have parametric CAD solutions such as Catia and SolidWorks. Add up the entire CAD world user base and draw a vertical line. Place AutoCAD and AutoCAD LT only on the left, and everything else on the right and tell me the numbers you come up with. Then revisit it year after year and watch the decline of 2D non-intelligent non-parametric AutoCAD, and a significant increase in 2D/3D fully parametric, fully intelligent database driven CAD software.

[ReMark]

You you add up all the other 2D solutions like IntelliCAD, Bricscad, ZWcad, progeCAD, DataCAD, etc.

 

BTW....how does parametric software benefit the person who is drawing...

 

...process flow diagrams?

 

...process piping and instrumentation diagrams?

 

...mine shaft layouts?

 

...site plans?

 

...highway right-of-way maps?

 

...underground utility maps?

 

...process block diagrams?

 

...electrical schematics?

 

...contour maps?

 

Just to name a few.

Edited April 9, 2014 by ReMark

[tzframpton]

You you add up all the other 2D solutions like IntelliCAD, Bricscad, ZWcad, progeCAD, DataCAD, etc.

Leave off the freebies. They are non-business solutions with no support.

 

I have never seen someone stretch this far to try and justify ancient technology with 2D unintelligent drafting software. Still cracking me up. I need to have my boss read this stuff so we both can get a laugh out of it... lol.

 

-Tannar

[ReMark]

None of those are freebies.

 

Obviously your last sentence is just your way of saying you don't have an intelligent answer to my questions.

[tzframpton]

None of those are freebies.

I thought ProgeCAD was... either way it's still a stretch.

 

Obviously your last sentence is just your way of saying you don't have an intelligent answer to my questions.

Haha, not at all... that's your assumption is all. My last sentence is me literally laughing because it doesn't matter what answer I give you... your mind is already made up. I can scour the internet, make phone calls and receive real world numbers and post back on here to show you a validating response and you'd still disagree. My responses do not matter to you. I'm already wrong in your mind before I even post, so I'm retracting from any rational debate and having fun.

 

My last company will not hire someone who "only" knows AutoCAD... you must know Revit and AutoCAD. My current company will not hire an AutoCAD-only designer. Revit is now the bare minimum as a prerequisite. There are companies who follow the exact same policies in manufacturing with Inventor and SolidWorks. Companies in the aerospace industry haven't considered AutoCAD in decades. So lets approach this statement logically. Why would companies yank the AutoCAD-only skill set as a basis for resume searching and employment opportunities, only to then go back to AutoCAD only as a basis in the future? How does that make sense? Why would a company in a specific industry make drastic financial investment decisions, changing entire department procedures, years of training and development with newer software applications, only to go backwards?

 

This is not a provoking question. It is very legitimate and would like an honest, logical answer from whoever would like to comment.

[Cad64]

My last company will not hire someone who "only" knows AutoCAD... you must know Revit and AutoCAD. My current company will not hire an AutoCAD-only designer. Revit is now the bare minimum as a prerequisite. There are companies who follow the exact same policies in manufacturing with Inventor and SolidWorks.

 

This is true. I'm always looking at the job listings and I'm finding that most companies are looking for someone who knows either Revit, Inventor or Solidworks as well as Autocad. It will be tough for me if I have to go back to work in an architecture or engineering office because I only know Autocad.

 

And yes, there is a free version of ProgeCad, but I use the Pro version and it is not free.

[tzframpton]

It will be tough for me if I have to go back to work in an architecture or engineering office because I only know Autocad.

I'll back you up with some Revit support my friend. By chance do you have access to Revit? I have some personal jobs I've completed that I can throw your way for you to fiddle around with if you're interested.

 

-Tannar

[Cad64]

By chance do you have access to Revit? I have some personal jobs I've completed that I can throw your way for you to fiddle around with if you're interested.

 

Thanks for the offer but I'm currently keeping busy with my freelance 3D renderings and CAD drafting so I don't have any need to learn Revit right now, but if the time ever comes when I have to sit down and start learning it I will certainly hit you up for assistance because you obviously know what you're doing with it.

[tzframpton]

Awesome man, glad to see you're still living the dream.

 

BTW I'm posting the house that we built in Revit and going to render in Max tonight or tomorrow. I'll definitely need some assistance on that... but super excited to see how it turns out!

 

[RobDraw]

I thought ProgeCAD was... either way it's still a stretch.

 

Haha, not at all... that's your assumption is all. My last sentence is me literally laughing because it doesn't matter what answer I give you... your mind is already made up. I can scour the internet, make phone calls and receive real world numbers and post back on here to show you a validating response and you'd still disagree. My responses do not matter to you. I'm already wrong in your mind before I even post, so I'm retracting from any rational debate and having fun.

 

My last company will not hire someone who "only" knows AutoCAD... you must know Revit and AutoCAD. My current company will not hire an AutoCAD-only designer. Revit is now the bare minimum as a prerequisite. There are companies who follow the exact same policies in manufacturing with Inventor and SolidWorks. Companies in the aerospace industry haven't considered AutoCAD in decades. So lets approach this statement logically. Why would companies yank the AutoCAD-only skill set as a basis for resume searching and employment opportunities, only to then go back to AutoCAD only as a basis in the future? How does that make sense? Why would a company in a specific industry make drastic financial investment decisions, changing entire department procedures, years of training and development with newer software applications, only to go backwards?

 

This is not a provoking question. It is very legitimate and would like an honest, logical answer from whoever would like to comment.

 

Once again, you are not making any sense. Who said anyone was going back to AutoCAD or any other similar software after using Revit? I believe the argument was over whether or not Revit was going to replace AutoCAD, not the other way around.

 

Just because you live in some sort of elitist world doesn't mean that us people down here in the trenches don't exist. AutoCAD will probably be around for a long time and a lot of places will not replace it with Revit because Revit does not suit their needs. Also, don't forget that when you insult AutoCAD you are insulting the tools of peoples' trade, their livelihood. People are not going to like that. Just like the way you feel when people insult Revit.

[ReMark]

A quick check of Monster.com shows there are more job opening being posted for AutoCAD DRAFTER than there are for Revit/BIM.

 

Tanner: You have yet to demonstrate to me how switching to any parametric CAD program can benefit me in my job. I do mainly process piping and instrumentation diagrams, process flow diagrams, site plans, building layouts, and electrical schematics not to mention isometric piping diagrams.

[tzframpton]

A quick check of Monster.com shows there are more job opening being posted for AutoCAD DRAFTER than there are for Revit/BIM.

In what area of the country did you search? And what search criteria did you use? And did you also search jobs for Inventor, SolidWorks, Catia, and the like?

 

Tanner: You have yet to demonstrate to me how switching to any parametric CAD program can benefit me in my job. I do mainly process piping and instrumentation diagrams, process flow diagrams, site plans, building layouts, and electrical schematics not to mention isometric piping diagrams.

Mark: You have yet to demonstrate to me how AutoCAD is more beneficial than any trade-specific parametric CAD program.

[fkleiner]

Mark: You have yet to demonstrate to me how AutoCAD is more beneficial than any trade-specific parametric CAD program.

 

I'm interested in hearing this as well, a sizable portion of our work is 2D like details and P&IDs. Can we completely move away from AutoCAD and create those drawings in Revit?

[tzframpton]

I'm interested in hearing this as well, a sizable portion of our work is 2D like details and P&IDs. Can we completely move away from AutoCAD and create those drawings in Revit?

100% yes. Ask Rob... you can still draft in Revit. He does all the time.

 

[Cad64]

A quick check of Monster.com shows there are more job opening being posted for AutoCAD DRAFTER than there are for Revit/BIM.

 

Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but I search Monster regularly, as well as other job sites, and Autocad drafting jobs are always few and far between in my area of California. Most jobs require knowledge of not only Autocad but Inventor, Solidworks, Revit, or some other program. I have a hard time finding jobs that require Autocad drafting only. Most places want you to know Autocad and at least 1 other program. And when I do find a job posting for Autocad drafting only, it typically pays next to nothing. If I want to go back to work in an office I will probably have to learn Revit or Inventor or some other program, or else I'll be working for peanuts.

 

While I don't believe that Autocad is going away any time soon, I do believe it's becoming more and more necessary to have a few other programs under your belt. Especially parametric modeling programs.

[RobDraw]

I'm interested in hearing this as well, a sizable portion of our work is 2D like details and P&IDs. Can we completely move away from AutoCAD and create those drawings in Revit?

 

Yes. If you decide to make the move, you will probably want to do the 2D work in AutoCAD and link it into the model. That is, until you get comfortable with the 2D tools in Revit. (Avoid the import option unless you are totally familiar with how to prepare the .dwg for import and cleaning it up afterwards.)

[Glen1980]

I've just started learning Revit as our MD has decided Revit is the way to go. For perspective we didn't get AutoCAD until 2005 and was using a truly awful cad programme called Drawing Express. In the UK this year I have seen maybe 5 AutoCAD drawing jobs for Architectural technicians and countless Revit/BIM jobs and additionally form 2016 any job that has £1m of government money in it will HAVE to be drawn in BIM, I think to BIM level 2. Of course with our government at the moment the value of the development has changed to the point nobody actually knows what it will be and they could postpone it altogether.

I have spoken to our structural engineers and only one of them hasn't thought about revit, one of them loves Revit and one of them has revit but until now nobody to use it with (both of the non-users are small time engineers.) When getting quotes for our latest city tower development all but one engineer proposed drawing in revit, apparently structural guys love the programme.

Our M&E guy is prepared to go down the Revit route but is worried that it will cause him more work as currently pipe runs are solid lines and he'll have to spend more man hours producing the drawings but thinks no client will want to spend more for the design. He also had a moan that nodoby seems to build what they put on their drawings in the first place!

 

Personally I'm loving it and not looking forwards to going back to the multi storey job I was previously working on as that will only be in CAD **Hides from ReMarks glare**

Edited April 11, 2014 by Glen1980
Edited for clarity. 2 pints at lunch doesn't help typing apparently.

[lkenshalo]

no client will want to spend more for the design.

 

I'm experiencing this exactly. I get the impression that the owners of my new(just transferd from teaching) company view me just as an expense. I'm a contractual obligation they are fulfilling, nothing more. We're using Revit to produce 2D drawings(backgrounds) for the engineers which they import into Autocad, add MEP fixtures & equipment, and then return to me to place the model elements. For them this is just an extra step in the process with no financial benefit other than the ability to bid on jobs they might not otherwise be able to - I think everyone in my office hates me(atleast Revit).

 

He also had a moan that nobody seems to build what they put on their drawings in the first place!

 

These models and drawings are just suggestions, right??? Ha!

[fkleiner]

Thanks Rob and Glen. From all the research I've done, and especially the comments here, Revit is something that must considered. Currently it may not be right for everyone, but for people who can use content out of the box I am really jealous! I hope I'm not asking for too much here but I do have more questions. Please understand that I am not a designer and have a crude understanding of why we design what we design, and also that I don't expect to have everything answered.

 

1) We currently have 3D models created in AutoCAD. With Revit, can we import them and add connectors (I'm under the impression this is how it would be done) to make them look pleasing to the eye?

1a) Should we purchase and learn Inventor to re-create those 3D models and import them instead? I have some experience (bad) with sharing our 3D models with people who use Revit.

1b) If importing 3D models isn't ideal or possible, should we plan on subbing out work to people capable of creating the very complex parametric parts?

1c) If not any of the above, is the best answer to create parametric parts ourselves that aren't very complex but aren't pleasing to the eye?

2) When our pipe penetrates a concrete wall, a water stop needs to be added to it. As far as I understand it is a ring that goes around the pipe allowing it to adhere better to concrete and prevent leakage. Can this be an intelligent part, or more importantly if not, is it something that we can slap on to it or draft without causing issue? That seems like a very "AutoCAD" approach as opposed to Revit, but it would be very nice if it could appear in every instance, especially without additional steps.

3) If we create a complete Revit model can we create 2D backgrounds split by level/elevation for coordination with other ordinary CAD software?

[tzframpton]

1) We currently have 3D models created in AutoCAD. With Revit, can we import them and add connectors (I'm under the impression this is how it would be done) to make them look pleasing to the eye?

I won't say that you cannot do this. You most certainly can import a DWG 3D object inside a Revit Family. However, this is HIGHLY DISCOURAGED for many, many reasons. I cannot stress this enough. If you do this, you're starting out with the #1 worst habit in all of Revit.

 

1a) Should we purchase and learn Inventor to re-create those 3D models and import them instead? I have some experience (bad) with sharing our 3D models with people who use Revit.

If you want to you can, but there's really zero need. Plus, it's just one more step, and one more set of hurdles when the Inventor doesn't import into Revit correctly. All Revit content needs to be native Revit.

 

1b) If importing 3D models isn't ideal or possible, should we plan on subbing out work to people capable of creating the very complex parametric parts?

Sure if you find someone. I run a very successful and legitimate side business (with a partner of mine) so I could even consult with you and your company to get some good content going for you, set up a template, etc... then teach you and your guys the "real world" tips and tricks to get y'all up and running in no time. PM if there is interest in this.

 

1c) If not any of the above, is the best answer to create parametric parts ourselves that aren't very complex but aren't pleasing to the eye?

Revit is very easy. It's easier than people actually think. Parametric does not necessarily equal difficult. As long as someone shows you the basics, I promise you things will click so unbelievably fast it's unreal.

 

Have you or any of your guys ever created a 2D Dynamic Block in AutoCAD? Well, Dynamic Blocks' intuitiveness was actually stolen from Revit. When Autodesk bought Revit back in 2002, a few releases later Dynamic Blocks emerged in AutoCAD, including an external block editor which is strikingly similar in almost every way to Revit's Family Editor. AutoCAD can only mimic Revit's intuitive functionality but can never reach the full potential. I admit, AutoCAD did a fantastic job for the 2D block.

 

2) When our pipe penetrates a concrete wall, a water stop needs to be added to it. As far as I understand it is a ring that goes around the pipe allowing it to adhere better to concrete and prevent leakage. Can this be an intelligent part, or more importantly if not, is it something that we can slap on to it or draft without causing issue? That seems like a very "AutoCAD" approach as opposed to Revit, but it would be very nice if it could appear in every instance, especially without additional steps.

Yes, Revit can 100% do this, however you'd have to jump into the Revit API to customize the auto-magic process of placing it when it hits a wall. But it's just a content piece. It would be a Piping Accessory Family, and it would need to be manually placed and it will automatically break the pipe and anchor to the pipe. Just align it to the wall and you're done. You can build all of the 2D Detail Linework into the Family itself for quick and easy "live detailing".

 

3) If we create a complete Revit model can we create 2D backgrounds split by level/elevation for coordination with other ordinary CAD software?

100% yes, super dooper easy to do this. The Plan Views in Revit models are "sliced" by level anyways, so you can run a batch export to 2D DWG and you're done. Or 3D if you rather. These are all simple and fundamental options in Revit.

 

Hope this helps! Have a good weekend.

 

-Tannar