Lee Mac - the lisp legend

[BlackBox]

I'd be remiss if I didn't express my appreciation for all that Lee has done for this community, and for helping me personally.

 

As most of you already know, I've not been a CAD user for very long (and a member of the forums for even less), but during my limited experience I can attest to Lee's willingness, and ability to mentor others as being uncanny. I am proud to know you, Lee, and to have had the rare privilege of extending you a small kindness as thanks, once upon a time... You're a brilliant mind, matched by few... Despite any inherent abilities I may have, I wouldn't be developing at the level I am today, without first being motivated by the example you set as one of a very select few standard bearers.

 

Imitation may be the highest form of flattery, but striving to truly live up to such a high standard does not come without a great deal of respect, admiration, and perseverance, which inherently defines the motivation behind one's effort.

 

While this isn't the first time I've stumbled across a thread such as this, each being well deserved, I hope this in particular makes crystal clear the the gravity of your words, and the ripples they make in others lives, intended or not.

 

May God continue to bless you, in all that you do.

 

 

 

Cheers

[GP_]

 

+315

 

 

 

Always available and willing to help.

Thanks Lee.

[samifox]

And then there are those of us who remembers when Lee first came here, all young and green and asked all those questions

 

You deserve the cheers mate

 

your reply actually gave me the idea to browse Lee's first posts, and it looks identical to my posts now.... Lee , its amazing how far i went

 

BDW.......i were sure you were the assistant of John McCarthy in the lab:shock:

[neophoible]

Lee is a natural linguist, so it's no surprise he's as good as he is. I have a few friends who are high level programmers and their personality shows many signs of linguistic traits. One of those friends is a full pastie white boy 'Merican, and he married a Hispanic who's first language is Spanish. This friend can program natively in 20+ languages and is a very high level applications developer. Well, because of talents he learned Spanish in three months. It's just the way he's designed... his brain is logical with syntax, semantics, pragmatics, characters, etc.

Well, that's an interesting observation, but I'm not so sure about the correlation. I don't know the extent of Lee's linguistic abilities, and no offense to your talented friend, but I've not found programming languages and human languages to be quite so similar in acquiring. Maybe Spanish isn't too far a reach for someone already a native speaker of English, but not all languages are equally easy to deal with. Human languages are not nearly so logical with syntax, semantics, pronunciation, intonation, etc., though one may naively think so about his own. Observing a few ESL classes full of Russian programmers ought to dispel that notion forthwith from an English speaker. And of course programming languages are generally written not spoken, and written to communicate with computers, not humans. Having said all that, it would be interesting to see the stats on how much overlap there is between all the disciplines related to computer and human languages.

[Bhull1985]

Well don't forget the more general correlation of heightened intelligence in those who pick up additional languages AND those who program computers or develop software.. , as I don't think Billy-Joe-Ray and his 8th grade education will be doing either. No offense, Billy-Joe-Ray...

[BlackBox]

Very interesting sub-topic Tannar, neophoible, and bhull1985.

 

 

 

I think, and I could be wrong, that while there's no direct correlation between development languages, and foreign/spoken languages per-se, I can see certain 'fundamentals' that if understood, may predispose one to being able to pick the other up quickly.

 

For example, at their root, each language, development or otherwise, has certain 'familiarity' with the others in that they've been designed to operate on a library of Keywords (Pronouns, Adjectives) and Objects (Nouns), which have relevant Properties (Characteristics, traits), Methods (Verbs), and Events (Reactions) that each can/will perform. For this reason, it may be likely that someone who has an aptitude for one, may be predisposed for being proficient at the other in turn.

 

Where it gets tricky, is attempting to correlate a Past Participle (Completed), which is in development terms most likely going to actually be another Object Property (or Field), who's value was placed when some preceding Method (Verb), or Event (Reaction) was raised (enacted).

 

 

 

As an aside, and I'm quite rusty these days, but long before I began learning to code, I spoke conversational Spanish, and French. I'm soon starting to learn Italian in preparation of our trip to Italy next year to see some of Mrs. BlackBox's family who still lives there.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[Edit] - I too would be very interested in what other languages, Lee knows, or is interested in.

[tzframpton]

Well, that's an interesting observation, but I'm not so sure about the correlation. I don't know the extent of Lee's linguistic abilities, and no offense to your talented friend, but I've not found programming languages and human languages to be quite so similar in acquiring. Maybe Spanish isn't too far a reach for someone already a native speaker of English, but not all languages are equally easy to deal with. Human languages are not nearly so logical with syntax, semantics, pronunciation, intonation, etc., though one may naively think so about his own. Observing a few ESL classes full of Russian programmers ought to dispel that notion forthwith from an English speaker. And of course programming languages are generally written not spoken, and written to communicate with computers, not humans. Having said all that, it would be interesting to see the stats on how much overlap there is between all the disciplines related to computer and human languages.

Good points neo. But until you have actually met my friend Sam, you would then understand. He's what you would call "in a class on his own" so yes, it's an unfair comparison for my friend and Lee. I am merely comparing Lee and my friend under the overarching umbrella of programmers. It would be very difficult for me to break down the individual talents of both comparatively.

 

In regards to your first sentence, the correlation is in fact there. My definition may be off, as I used "linguist/linguistic" for spoken and computer languages. My friend Sam is what you would call an "out of the box" programmer. His mind lives and breathes languages and syntax, whether it be spoken, written or computer languages. I'd even bet he'd be a good geneticist with biological languages. But, I don't know if there's a general term other than "linguist"? I would assume so, but haven't came across it yet.

 

My friend Sam is very unique. He was born to program, as it seems Lee was too. This was my original intent of the comparison, along with the term. My apologies in advance if I butchered the definition and execution of "linguist" haha.

 

 

*EDIT*

To further make a point about my friend, Sam... he has actually written his own language and parsed it before. It's simple... but it's awesome. He has said on multiple occasions over a beer and soda (me drinking beer, him soda because he doesn't drink) that he would love to write an entire OS one day. It's not a point "if" he could do it, it's if he ever had the time to do it.

 

Just a little extra tid-bit.

[neophoible]

Well don't forget the more general correlation of heightened intelligence in those who pick up additional languages AND those who program computers or develop software.. , as I don't think Billy-Joe-Ray and his 8th grade education will be doing either. No offense, Billy-Joe-Ray...

Yes, I can see this, and no offense taken. I would add that a 'future' B-J-R might very well pick up several other human languages, especially if exposed to them early enough, just as he picked up his own. He might not be very fluent, grammatical or literate in his use of any of them, however, and herein may lie a big practical difference between programming and speaking languages. I suspect some linguistics experts would be able to comment intelligently and even knowledgably about some of this, but I'm not so sure I would be able to understand them.;)

[neophoible]

Good points neo. But until you have actually met my friend Sam, you would then understand. He's what you would call "in a class on his own" so yes, it's an unfair comparison for my friend and Lee. I am merely comparing Lee and my friend under the overarching umbrella of programmers. It would be very difficult for me to break down the individual talents of both comparatively.

 

In regards to your first sentence, the correlation is in fact there. My definition may be off, as I used "linguist/linguistic" for spoken and computer languages. My friend Sam is what you would call an "out of the box" programmer. His mind lives and breathes languages and syntax, whether it be spoken, written or computer languages. I'd even bet he'd be a good geneticist with biological languages. But, I don't know if there's a general term other than "linguist"? I would assume so, but haven't came across it yet.

 

My friend Sam is very unique. He was born to program, as it seems Lee was too. This was my original intent of the comparison, along with the term. My apologies in advance if I butchered the definition and execution of "linguist" haha.

 

 

*EDIT*

To further make a point about my friend, Sam... he has actually written his own language and parsed it before. It's simple... but it's awesome. He has said on multiple occasions over a beer and soda (me drinking beer, him soda because he doesn't drink) that he would love to write an entire OS one day. It's not a point "if" he could do it, it's if he ever had the time to do it.

 

Just a little extra tid-bit.

Yes, without meeting him I suspected he might be in a very high class of skill and talent that would skew the data quite a bit. And I certainly don't need any apology, though perhaps some linguists might feel they ought to get one. Let that be their problem.

 

What I would like to see is just how much computer programming would appeal to, say, a UN-class interpreter, or some really skilled polyglot. I'm not so sure the correlation would hold in those cases. But it would be interesting to see. And also in comparison to many other disciplines. As a start, perhaps one might look at how much of the programming code such linguists might write for translation programs. That might be tricky, though, specially if they are ashamed of the results. Perhaps most would not want to take credit for current results, if you know what I mean.

[neophoible]

Very interesting sub-topic Tannar, neophoible, and bhull1985.

 

 

 

I think, and I could be wrong, that while there's no direct correlation between development languages, and foreign/spoken languages per-se, I can see certain 'fundamentals' that if understood, may predispose one to being able to pick the other up quickly.

 

For example, at their root, each language, development or otherwise, has certain 'familiarity' with the others in that they've been designed to operate on a library of Keywords (Pronouns, Adjectives) and Objects (Nouns), which have relevant Properties (Characteristics, traits), Methods (Verbs), and Events (Reactions) that each can/will perform. For this reason, it may be likely that someone who has an aptitude for one, may be predisposed for being proficient at the other in turn.

 

Where it gets tricky, is attempting to correlate a Past Participle (Completed), which is in development terms most likely going to actually be another Object Property (or Field), who's value was placed when some preceding Method (Verb), or Event (Reaction) was raised (enacted).

 

 

 

As an aside, and I'm quite rusty these days, but long before I began learning to code, I spoke conversational Spanish, and French. I'm soon starting to learn Italian in preparation of our trip to Italy next year to see some of Mrs. BlackBox's family who still lives there.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[Edit] - I too would be very interested in what other languages, Lee knows, or is interested in.

Yeah, I don't know the correlation either, I'm just like everyone else having my own limited experience to go by and spouting it as informed opinion. NATS: One time I had laryngitis. After the doctor looked at my throat, I wrote, "Doc, will I be able to speak Russian after this?" "I don't see why not," he said. "Wow, that's great!" I penned. "Why are you so excited?" he wanted to know. "Well, I was never able to before.":D

[tzframpton]

It's kind of weird to me that some of the programmers here do not see a correlation between computer languages and spoken languages. This idea was brought up to me by my programming friends, in fact. All language rests under the "umbrella" of information. You have the syntax, which defines the structure and framework of the language symbols and grammar (spoken, written, computer, or biological). Then you have the sender which transmits the information (through audible source, written source, digital source, or chemical source) and receiver, which translates the information given. Parsing, I think, is what allows the human sender and computer receiver to communicate (and vice versa). Statistics, syntax, semantics, pragmatics, and then apobetics.

 

I guess they (my personal programming friends) have a different outlook on the types of language. In fact, this would be a good time to put a plug in for the both of them, hopefully Lee wouldn't mind since this is a thread focused directly on him, haha.

 

Sam Dillow

 

Luke Keith

[Lee Mac]

Lee has put in his work, that's for sure. I'm guessing there are actually over 20,000 posts in these last 5 years that OP here had mentioned, between Augi-theSwamp-CADtutor-AutoCAD forums, and he probably posts in more.... So if there's 20,000 posts in a span of 1825 days (5 years), averages to be almost 11 posts every single day. Consistency trumps potential but every now and then in sports, politics, and even here in programming....there's a gem who is/has both. I think that's what we're dealing with here, and is also why I asked about the future. Guess that's at least 6 more years of wonderfully upgraded autocad experiences for us and everyone else who's had the pleasure of working with a Lee Mac program !

 

Thank you Brandon

 

I haven't kept track of the number of posts that I have accumulated at various forums, but in all honesty, I probably devote a little too much time to forum participation - perhaps occasionally at the detriment of other things when I look back on it.

 

But, aside from the current thread, the time I have dedicated has been almost solely to technical discussion, and consequently I have gained a greal deal of knowledge from my time spent here and at other forums; and so I contemplate that if I hadn't spent my spare time writing code for contribution to the forums, would I have spent it as productively (or even as enjoyably) elsewhere?

 

Nevertheless, I'm delighted that you enjoy working with my programs and that your AutoCAD experience is improved as a result (maybe I should get some commission from Autodesk for that; jk).

 

I admired Lee ever since I saw his code for being short and efficient. I know you all do. If wasn't for his lack of selfishness his knowledge about lisp is worthless with us all.

 

Generosity is what sets this guys from others. When someone learn a few tricks of their own on this and other forums, they take off without helping the lisp community back.

 

Thank you jdiala

 

The way I look at it, if members had not been as generous with their knowledge at the time I first joined, I would have progressed far more slowly in my learning and without any feedback or direction, I perhaps might've even lost interest and moved on to another field of study.

 

Hence, if we are successively selfish with the knowledge we have gained, then who knows what talents could be missed from the next generation of potential AutoLISP programmers..?

 

+315

 

Always available and willing to help.

Thanks Lee.

 

Thank you GP

 

I'd be remiss if I didn't express my appreciation for all that Lee has done for this community, and for helping me personally.

 

As most of you already know, I've not been a CAD user for very long (and a member of the forums for even less), but during my limited experience I can attest to Lee's willingness, and ability to mentor others as being uncanny. I am proud to know you, Lee, and to have had the rare privilege of extending you a small kindness as thanks, once upon a time... You're a brilliant mind, matched by few... Despite any inherent abilities I may have, I wouldn't be developing at the level I am today, without first being motivated by the example you set as one of a very select few standard bearers.

 

Imitation may be the highest form of flattery, but striving to truly live up to such a high standard does not come without a great deal of respect, admiration, and perseverance, which inherently defines the motivation behind one's effort.

 

While this isn't the first time I've stumbled across a thread such as this, each being well deserved, I hope this in particular makes crystal clear the the gravity of your words, and the ripples they make in others lives, intended or not.

 

May God continue to bless you, in all that you do.

 

Thank you BlackBox, your admiration and gratitude really mean a lot, and I admire the eloquence of your flattery, you certainly have a way with words - perhaps it is true what Tannar suggests.

 

Lee is a natural linguist, so it's no surprise he's as good as he is. I have a few friends who are high level programmers and their personality shows many signs of linguistic traits. It's just the way he's designed... his brain is logical with syntax, semantics, pragmatics, characters, etc.

 

I think, and I could be wrong, that while there's no direct correlation between development languages, and foreign/spoken languages per-se, I can see certain 'fundamentals' that if understood, may predispose one to being able to pick the other up quickly.

 

I too would be very interested in what other languages, Lee knows, or is interested in.

 

In my opinion, I definitely feel that there is a strong link between not only programming languages and spoken languages, but also the language of mathematics (from which it might be said that programming languages are derived), and the 'language' of music.

 

In response to BlackBox's enquiry, I studied French for 7 years and, although much of the vocabulary has been forgotten as I am terribly out of practice, I distinctly remember learning the 'rules' of the language and the language syntax, similar to (but not quite as precise) as learning the syntax of a programming language (however, with many more exceptions!).

 

Similarly, I have also played piano for the past 10 years (self-taught) and I believe many of the skills acquired from teaching myself the 'language' of reading sheet music have facilitated my grasp of both foreign spoken language & programming languages, since all forms of language follow rules, encouraging a logical way of thinking and forming a sort of synergy between the subject areas... Ok, maybe that's a bit deep.

[nod684]

thanks Lee for a handful of useful Lisp!

More power!!!

[danielk]

A king and a Legend . i owe you more then you know , using your lisp everyday .

thank you so much !!!!

[wimal]

Congrajulation Mr.Lee

I am one of your student from beautiful Sri Lanka.....

[Lee Mac]

thanks Lee for a handful of useful Lisp!

More power!!!

 

You're welcome nod!

 

A king and a Legend . i owe you more then you know , using your lisp everyday .

thank you so much !!!!

 

Thank you Daniel!

I'm honoured to hear that you are using my programs everyday in your work!

 

Congrajulation Mr.Lee

I am one of your student from beautiful Sri Lanka.....

 

Thank you wimal -

I've never had the pleasure of visiting Sri Lanka, but from the pictures I have seen, I agree that it looks like a beautiful place to live.

[BlackBox]

Thank you BlackBox, your admiration and gratitude really mean a lot, and I admire the eloquence of your flattery, you certainly have a way with words - perhaps it is true what Tannar suggests.

 

That is kind of you to say, Lee; I am honored to leave such an impression, and only wish I was so eloquent all of the time.

 

In my opinion, I definitely feel that there is a strong link between not only programming languages and spoken languages, but also the language of mathematics (from which it might be said that programming languages are derived), and the 'language' of music.

 

In response to BlackBox's enquiry, I studied French for 7 years and, although much of the vocabulary has been forgotten as I am terribly out of practice, I distinctly remember learning the 'rules' of the language and the language syntax, similar to (but not quite as precise) as learning the syntax of a programming language (however, with many more exceptions!).

 

Similarly, I have also played piano for the past 10 years (self-taught) and I believe many of the skills acquired from teaching myself the 'language' of reading sheet music have facilitated my grasp of both foreign spoken language & programming languages, since all forms of language follow rules, encouraging a logical way of thinking and forming a sort of synergy between the subject areas... Ok, maybe that's a bit deep.

 

Interesting on multiple counts....

 

Perhaps I wasn't looking at this from a similar point of view, or have made an incorrect observation altogether on the language topic.

 

When I stated no direct correlation, I was implicitly defining correlation in the context of given a word in any one spoken language, that (generally speaking) there is an equivalent word in other spoken languages as well. Whereas there are specific words that only hold relevance in programming in that, or similar conceptual not spoken context (if that makes sense?). Obviously programming was designed well after spoken language, and at least for the API's I consume, were designed to 'read' like a book so-to-speak, which is why I attempted to show analogous aspects Noun, Verb, etc..

 

As for the pianist, while I do not play myself (played trombone, and percussion when I wasn't otherwise engaged with Football, and ROTC; my uncle also taught me to play Enter Sandman on an acoustic guitar, LoL), I'm actually a big fan of solo piano music as a subset of classical music generally. My two favorite solo pianists at the moment are Phillip Glass, and Rob Costlow (specifically his "Sophomore Jinx" album; more specifically the song? "Bliss").

 

Again, very interesting discussion all round.

[neophoible]

In my opinion, I definitely feel that there is a strong link between not only programming languages and spoken languages, but also the language of mathematics (from which it might be said that programming languages are derived), and the 'language' of music.

 

In response to BlackBox's enquiry, I studied French for 7 years and, although much of the vocabulary has been forgotten as I am terribly out of practice, I distinctly remember learning the 'rules' of the language and the language syntax, similar to (but not quite as precise) as learning the syntax of a programming language (however, with many more exceptions!).

 

Similarly, I have also played piano for the past 10 years (self-taught) and I believe many of the skills acquired from teaching myself the 'language' of reading sheet music have facilitated my grasp of both foreign spoken language & programming languages, since all forms of language follow rules, encouraging a logical way of thinking and forming a sort of synergy between the subject areas... Ok, maybe that's a bit deep.

I think the original idea may be getting confused here, or maybe I'm just more confused than I realize. I definitely think there is correlation between languages of all sorts, even communication of all sorts, I'm just very far from convinced that they are all acquired or learned in the same way, though there is certainly a great deal of overlap in the ways they can be looked at, analyzed.

 

I've also heard that musical ability can be linked to linguistic skills, though perhaps more to do with accent and intonation, which are a very important part of speaking a language, much of which can be easily lost in writing, unless the writer is very skilled. As music can be viewed mathematically, I can see a correlation there as well, but I would not venture to correlate human musical ability with mathematical ability too strongly. For example, I would not expect great singers or instrumentalists to be great mathematicians or vice versa. I'm not saying some couldn't be both, just not something I would expect to follow necessarily, though I would expect it well before I would expect a great linguist to be a great programmer.

 

And now I'll throw in a bit of personal experience that you can't argue with without deeply offending me and my family. My wife's dad is great at mathematics and programming, but he doesn't seem to have much in the way of music or linguistics. His wife is quite a good musician, but she doesn't come across as all that good at math or at languages. They both, however, know two languages natively. My wife's grandmother loves to sing and is a very good mathematician. She likes to write and express herself dramatically. She doesn't play an instrument, though her husband did.

 

When I mentioned the possibility of correlation between being good at programming and at learning foreign languages, my wife laughed. When she finally stopped, she wanted to know what kind of people were suggesting this. I didn't give any specifics (other than that it was on the Internet, a CAD forum, your aliases, and...JK.) She's pretty good at acquiring languages, though not so good at math--she hates just the thought of it--and she's OK at music. If I were to talk to her about a computer program, say in BASIC, I think her eyes would just glaze over. And I'm not going to try, as she might have an unseen knife in her hand--that's more than I'm willing to risk. However, if there were something to learn in Hebrew or Greek or Latin or Chinese, then she would be all ears. We have some friends that are connected to a Linguistics University. We will try to get some feedback from them, though it will have to be after my wife stops laughing again. Perhaps it has to do with talking with people vs writing to computers, but I wasn't able to get the whole picture. Men and women just don't seem to communicate the same, but I suppose that's another topic.

 

I do recall a polyglot friend of mine who might have some insight into this as well. Perhaps I can get in touch with him. I don't recall him being too interested in anything mathematical or regarding programming. He also didn't care too much for writing. He was far better at, and more comfortable with speaking. To be fair, and to add a little more to the discussion, he also didn't care much for learning Asian languages; however, he was quite comfortable with several kinds of European languages. I think he had seven or eight under his belt some years ago. I don't know how many he is fluent in now. I just know he is a gifted linguist.

[tzframpton]

As music can be viewed mathematically, I can see a correlation there as well, but I would not venture to correlate human musical ability with mathematical ability too strongly. For example, I would not expect great singers or instrumentalists to be great mathematicians or vice versa. I'm not saying some couldn't be both, just not something I would expect to follow necessarily, though I would expect it well before I would expect a great linguist to be a great programmer.

Maybe I can clear this up a bit.

 

The correlation is all about how logical one's mental capacity is in regards to understanding the way something works. This "something" I'm speaking of is the laws of nature.

 

Language follows the Natural Law of Information, most widely related to as "Informatics". The Natural Law of Mathematics, or "Mathematics" and so forth. The list is long, but distinguished. While spoken language is a natural phenomenon, computer language is not - it is an artificial phenomenon. But, they both are strictly tied to laws, or rules, that are so strikingly similar it's safe to say there is a correlation between them. When you refer to the Rules of Language, you'll see that the Laws of Information have many of the same structure and framework defined. Syntax, Semantics, Pragmatics, and so forth.

 

Although your wife might see it as laughable (which I can totally understand), I would insist on considering these possible new-found topics I've presented. I think there's merit to this topic. Once again I'll reiterate that this idea came upon me from two very, very high level programmers. Does this mean everyone who is multi-lingual would make a good programmer, and vice versa? Not at all, because you have naturally gifted people, then you have people driven by an extraordinary amount of passion - which are two very different things to consider. Am I the best natural AutoCAD designer? Honestly, no. Not naturally, but it's my love and passion for the program that got me up to a seemingly elite level eventually. But there are those naturals that picked it up way faster than I, and pushed the envelope further than I ever could imagine.

 

So those understandings must be in place as well, because we are in fact talking about human beings and it is human desire that drives us, not logical or reasoning alone. Point is, one may love programming but not have any interest in being multi-lingual. Or one could NOT be great at something, even though they are naturally more talented in another domain. Much like my friend who learned Spanish... he did so only when he met his wife. Other than that, he had no desire to do so. But because his logical and reasoning abilities are so advanced in computer languages, he picked up on it unbelievably quick.

 

Hope this may help the topic. Good post though, neo!!

Edited September 11, 2013 by tzframpton

[Tuns]

Lee, your LISP programs make me want to array my polylines in your drawing space if you catch my drift.