2012 weirdness with elevation and extrusion

[charleyy]

1. insert block (seems fine) at 0 elevation, 1X scale in plan view

2. lists as 0 elevation, normal attributes, etc

3. go to front view, and lists at weird -apparently random- negative elevation with -1" extrusion, *BUT* still shows at 0 elevation!

4. in plan view, copy block on same elevation, etc and lists/looks that way in plan view, then...

5. go to front (or back, etc) view, list shows copied block at weird, negative, *different* elevation (not same negative elevation as one copied from),

*AND* with -1" extrusion ! (*but* still *shows* at 0 elevation, unlike our original problem where it was showing at the weird negative elevations)

6. driving us nuts...

 

now, the original problem was in a file that was supposed to be 'flat' with everything at 0 elevation, but stuff was showing up at a bunch of different elevations, with all kinds of 1" or -1" extrusions that were not explicitly made... then, when we tried to use the change/prop/elev command to put everything back at 0 elevation, it says it can't do that because of differing Z elevations ! ! ! in this case, the entities *were* showing up at the elevations listed, no matter what view...

 

done some knowledgebase searching, etc, but can't find a clue to the crime... any help/advice would be appreciated... (we've actually just gone and 'manually' moved all the stuff back to 0, dumped some stuff that was problematic, and are recreating the drawing, but this weirdness is showing up in other/new drawings...)

thanks

charley at svmarchitects dot com

eof

[SLW210]

If it is a block inserted at Z=0 it will show 0 elevation. Use the block editor to flatten.

 

I deleted your other thread. Please post the same question only once.

[charleyy]

not sure what reply is referencing, but i know the block components are at 0 elevation, i insert (work at) 0 elevation, and it is LISTing at 0 elevation, WHEN IN PLAN VIEW...

switch to non-plan/front/back/etc view, and it is LISTing it as (random) negative elevation...

switch to plan view, COPY entity and LISTs at 0 elevation, go to front/etc view, and LISTs at *another* (different) random negative elevation, *AND* shows it having a -1" extrusion (even if it is an entity that is not able to be extruded)...

*that* is part of the problem...

the *original* problem file was *also* putting the entities at the negative elevations, not just LISTing it that way, but not showing it that way...

in attempting to CHANGE/PROP/ELEV the entities at negative elevations, it would say it could not change those entities because they had differing Z values... (which they do not appear to have, EXCEPT that they also LIST a 1" or -1" EXTRUSION, which has not been used on *ANYTHING*)

[SLW210]

Can you post your file here?

[charleyy]

1. here is a test file which exhibits some of the weirdness referenced

2. started with an unmodified AutoCad plain vanilla template

3. inserted blocks (doesn't really matter, effect is not dependent upon which blocks i insert)

4. LISTs okay in plan view, but

5. when go to front/back/etc views, LISTs as some (apparently) random negative elevation

6. now, it *APPEARS* it is not having any effect on the actual elevation, it still *looks* like it is at elevation 0, but does not list that way in non-plan views. (*also* LISTs as having a 1" or -1" extrusion!)

7. that is *this* problem; BUT, the original file (which i don't have access to right now) not only LISTed the elevations as random negative elevations, but also put them at that random negative elevation... attempting to CHANGE/PROP/ELEV entities would not work, because it would say they had differing Z values and wouldn't move to elevation 0...

 

thanks for any insight

(have not posted a file here before, hope this works)

testELEV1.dwg

[ReMark]

So at one time these objects were 3D solids that you flattened to produce 2D views. Is that correct? If the answer is yes, what method did you use to derive the 2D blocks?

[Jack_O'neill]

What's happening to you is this...when you click on say, the "left" button, it resets your ucs to match. In your original top view, your refridgerator has an x coordinate of 196.3325300. When you switch to left, what was originally x coordinates are now z coordinates, so the fridge has a -196.3325300 in z.

[ReMark]

I think it had everything to do with how you created the 2D blocks.

 

Try this. Pick one of the blocks and run the Flatten command on it twice. Something unusual happens or at least it did for me.

[charleyy]

( replying to email reply that has not shown up on the thread yet)

 

1. entities created in AutoCad 2012, *intended* to be 2D/flat on elevation 0

2. again, LISTs 'fine' in plan view, but weirds out and LISTs it at some random negative elevation when looked at in a front/back/etc view.

(in this test file I've attached, it does NOT exhibit the real weirdity in our real file, which was not only LISTing as a random negative elevation, but actually placing it at the random negative elevation)

3. *IF* it was just a bug/problem of not LISTing correctly when in non-plan views, that would be annoying but no particular problem; *however* the original file this whole mess started in, has the entities PLACED at the random negative elevation, not just showing the random negative elevation when i LIST it in non-plan view.

4. the 'extrusion' connection is just another symptom, have NOT used the EXTRUDE command on ANYTHING in the drawing; but -again, in non-plan views- LISTs the entities as having a 1" OR -1" extrusion, EVEN IF they are non-extrudable entities ! again, not actually making it extruded, just saying it is when i LIST it...

(that is kind of a side issue, but just reporting all the symptoms in case some one recognizes the 'disease'... the real problem is moving stuff to random negative elevations...)

[Jack_O'neill]

Clipped from the command line in TOP view:

Command: list

 

Select objects: Specify opposite corner: 1 found

 

Select objects:

 

BLOCK REFERENCE Layer: "0"

Space: Model space

Handle = 3c0

Block Name: "Refrigerator"

at point, X=196.3325300 Y=11.3213752 Z=0.0000000

X scale factor: 1.0000000

Y scale factor: 1.0000000

rotation angle: 0d0'0.00"

Z scale factor: 1.0000000

Scale uniformly: No

Allow exploding: Yes

 

Clipped from command line in LEFT view:

Select objects:

 

BLOCK REFERENCE Layer: "0"

Space: Model space

Handle = 3c0

Block Name: "Refrigerator"

at point, X=-11.3213752 Y=0.0000000 Z=-196.3325300

X scale factor: 1.0000000

Y scale factor: 1.0000000

Z scale factor: 1.0000000

Extrusion direction relative to UCS:

X=0.0000000 Y=1.0000000 Z=0.0000000

Scale uniformly: No

Allow exploding: Yes

 

As you can see, your x coordinate in top view is now your z coordinate in left view.

 

Has everything to do with how the UCS is positioned. If you turn it 90 degrees, about the Y axis, what was "left and right" becomes "depth".

[charleyy]

to catch up with a couple more replies (THANK YOU very much, you cads):

 

1. blocks were created as 2D, not 'flattened' or otherwise converted from 3D

2. it was not just blocks, but all kinds of non-block entities which were weirded out; the example file i uploaded was a simplified demonstration of *SOME* of the problem...

3. in the original file, the problem was not just that it LISTed as some random negative elevation, but that it placed the entities at these random negative elevations (can not send at this point until get approval from boss)

thanks again, cads

[Jack_O'neill]

Listed from the "RIGHT" view, the negative z coordinate in left is now a positive z coordinate:

 

Select objects:

 

BLOCK REFERENCE Layer: "0"

Space: Model space

Handle = 3c0

Block Name: "Refrigerator"

at point, X=11.3213752 Y=0.0000000 Z=196.3325300

X scale factor: 1.0000000

Y scale factor: 1.0000000

Z scale factor: 1.0000000

Extrusion direction relative to UCS:

X=0.0000000 Y=1.0000000 Z=0.0000000

Scale uniformly: No

Allow exploding: Yes

[ReMark]

I'm having great difficulty believing these blocks were created in 2D from the start. And if they were, I'd have to say that whoever created them had little in the way of AutoCAD experience. How does one screw up the creation of a 2D block so completely? Come on, we're talking 2D right? Not 3D.

 

Where did you get them? Did you borrow them from some other drawing perhaps?

[charleyy]

okay, thanks for partial answer regarding axes flipping in different views, unfortunately, the simple example file i sent is not demonstrating the placement of entities on random negative elevations...

*BUT* how does that 'explain' the extrusion that is listed on the copy/paste you did ?

not to mention, (not having done any extensive 3D stuff in AutoCad in quite a while) *WHY* would i want my coordinate axes jumping around ? I want my X/Y/Z to be the same reference no matter what view I'm in, or maybe I'm just too old school to pick up on what is supposed to be a better way ?

[ReMark]

Maybe someone drew them with an elevation set to something other than "0" and did not know it at the time.

[Jack_O'neill]

okay, thanks for partial answer regarding axes flipping in different views, unfortunately, the simple example file i sent is not demonstrating the placement of entities on random negative elevations...

*BUT* how does that 'explain' the extrusion that is listed on the copy/paste you did ?

not to mention, (not having done any extensive 3D stuff in AutoCad in quite a while) *WHY* would i want my coordinate axes jumping around ? I want my X/Y/Z to be the same reference no matter what view I'm in, or maybe I'm just too old school to pick up on what is supposed to be a better way ?

 

If you use the view buttons, the ones with the cube that have a shaded side, their purpose is to not only give you a view in that angle but to orient the UCS so you can also draw on that side.

 

Think of it this way...pick up a book and look at the front cover. The spine is on the left side of the book, and the open edge is on the right side. If you turn the book to look at the spine, the open edge is no longer on the right side, it's now away from you. Now if you had just been drawing on the cover of the book, and wanted to draw on the spine, I would be impossible to do so if you could only move your pencil in the plane that the front cover is in. You'd have to be able to bring your pencil around to the spine.

 

That's what the UCS does for you. Y is up and down, X is right and left, and Z is toward/away from you, or a depth in the screen. If the book we were talking about above is 6 inches wide, and you put a zero at the spine and a 6 at the open edge, then turn the book to see the spine, the six is not to the right any more, it's 6 inches deep, or -6 in the z axis.

[Jack_O'neill]

Maybe someone drew them with an elevation set to something other than "0" and did not know it at the time.

 

It doesn't have anything to do with how they were drawn, 2d, 3d, or with a pencil. If you rotate the UCS 90° around the y axis, what was once an X axis coordinate becomes a Z axis coordinate.

[Jack_O'neill]

An objects coordinates are displayed in reference to the *current* ucs, not what they were originally drawn in

[ReMark]

I bet I could duplicate it without rotating the UCS at all.

[Jack_O'neill]

I bet I could duplicate it without rotating the UCS at all.

 

Knock your self out....I think you're gonna find I'm right on this one.